Let's Be Honest.

I got some stuff on my chest, but I cannot clearly define it and articulate in writing form, so I'm going to go about this carefully, and it may take a while to work it out. I may need your help on this.

Relevant info about me: I joined this forum a few years ago. So far, this forum, group, or whatever shares what I like most in car and motorsport that I have found to date. Prior to that, when I first started "touge-ing", I didn't know what touge was, I just drove on roads I liked, with whatever car I had at the time. And since I already knew I was breaking the law of the land (i.e. speeding, and the appearance of recklessness), I had to rely on my personal judgment at all times. I drove my car by feeling. That was, and still is the only REAL law I go by now a days.

Since the early days, I have taken my skill to the track, currently racing in Chumpcar, World Endurance Championship, AutoX, Time Trial, and just about any type of racing I can get my hands on, and I'm just getting started! At nearly everyone or those venues, I have been successful.










I contribute all this to "touge", or whatever it was I did a number of years on the street.

Touge in and of itself, at its core is actively breaking the law. Be honest, if you are reading this and have driven the back roads in a "spirited" manner, whether inspired by Initial D, or drifting, or what have you, I can probably say that you are a law breaker. And those of us who continue to "touge", we can clearly call ourselves habitual, unapologetic law breakers. If you don't think you are, either good for you, or STFU you hypocritical liar.

So what. My next post, I will continue my discussion...

I grew up driving the back roads of Knoxville and the surrounding areas. I had no idea what Touge was 20 years ago. All I knew is that driving in the foothills and mountains made me happy and gave me a sense of peace I can't find many other places. There are many laws that make no sense in my opinion. Do I break some? I sure do, and with a big grin on my face. If you aren't hurting or endangering others I don't see an issue with it. I consider tickets another tax.

Speeding tickets on the Touge are cheaper than track fees.

Minnoe07 wrote:

Speeding tickets on the Touge are cheaper than track fees.

don't have to worry about your state issued driving privilege being yanked or insurance rates jumping up when on the track...

I was driving around this Saturday early morning: at first it was dark and I would drive a certain way. Then as the sun rose, and there was more light, my driving style, and what I was willing to do changed. Why? Did the "rules" suddenly change when in the night time vs. the day time? All comes down to personal judgment.

I don't live in the mountains, the country roads in the piedmont sections of VA are much different than extreme mountain passes of what we would consider "touge country". Many times, there is no sacred double yellow line, there's nothing, just road, and "not" road. So, at night I stay in the middle as much as possible, in other word, if there was a actual double yellow line, I would crossing that mofo constantly. Why? To be an evil law breaking hellion? Nope.

1) 99% of the time, I drive alone. No need for multiple car etiquette
2) I tend to avoid roads where there is a lot of traffic, if any at all. As a matter of fact, I don't like being seen. I see other cars, I drop my speed.
3) Deer, deer, deer, and other random critters, but mostly deer. Hugging the center gives me a buffer on both sides of the road.

In the day, my judgment is different. I no longer hug the middle of the road, or cross the theoretical double yellow, more people will be active, I expect someone coming the other direction around every corner. Then deer are less of a concern, and I am able to see further ahead, so I drive a bit faster.

I didn't need a forum to tell me what to do, and what not to do on the "touge". Then I thought to myself, if I did roll out with these guys and wanted to participate in a official function, I would obey their rules to be a part of their group for that time. I can see where these rules are necessary to keep everything clean, I get that...

But let's be honest: What applies for this group as to the definition of a touge, and what to do, and what not to do on the touge, doesn't need to apply to everyone on every road around the world. I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death, but if you are the type of person on this forum, who obeys the rules of this forum as to "how to touge", AND you are a habitual, unapologetic federal/state law breaker, AND you expect EVERYONE ELSE in the world to follow the same rules as YOU do outlined on this forum (i.e. get all preachy when someone posts a story or video that demonstrates driving outside of your "rules") you are being hypocritical and narrow-minded.

Still working through my thoughts, more to come .

I don't expect other people to follow a set of rules set by "a forum". However, I do value my life and I've been doing this for almost 10 years now with 0 incidents in my own vehicle. I plan to keep it that way.

Everybody has a level of acceptable danger, if you will, before they fall out. I've run with some people where I am the dangerous one. They no longer hang out with me and I no longer hang with them because I scare them and they bore me.

I've run with people that I deem dangerous. Lane crossing on blind turns, loss of car control, erratic inputs, etc. I won't run with those people.

I plan on doing this for as long as I'm able to, and the only way to do that is to have fun and be safe, both which are within my own perspective.

But another point is that as a collective group, in certain venues like the dragon, we are embraced, as drivers pull over on pull offs so that we can pass and continue to have fun instead of trudging along at 30 mph.

Oh, and I've only paid 3 speeding tickets in my life (Although I've gotten 9 in my lifetime) and I pay $125/month on 3 vehicles, 2 which have full coverage. I've gotten my fair share of value from touging vs. tracking.

Very well put, I'm exactly like this, there are certain things that I simply will NOT do, that other people would do (that I would deem as dangerous and crazy). Then relative to a lot of other people, I'm the dangerous and crazy one.

Every road is different, what would be safe on one road, would be dangerous on another. Deal's Gap is a prime example. I had the opportunity to go there after Thanksgiving with my wife:



I was able to pass a couple of slow vehicle, and sometimes I would cross the d-yellow, only if I was able to see what was around the corner, but mostly I was in my lane and such. I had no moral loyalty to stick to a "code" or anything, I used personal judgment to make my moves. (btw, my first and only run was rather slow but constant, wifey wouldn't let me go faster , BTW, as another note, Deal's Gap is rather 'meh' compared to some of the road in VA!).

Okay, here is something that has been eating me. *WARNING* Ranting ahead!

I have been a members of all sorts of car related forums over the years, and in the last 5 years or so, I have seen this trend, esp. with people claiming to be gear heads, that whenever anyone mentions, or shows anything to do with speeding, racing, or disobeying any of the federal/state law on the streets, they get flamed. Comments like:

"Take it to the track!", "You're endangering lives!", "You're being a douche!", "Go F*** Yourself!", blah blah blah.

Okay, merited, they are technically correct, thank you for stating the obvious. Back in the day though, you'd get laughed at for saying stuff like that, you'd be called a "p***y", or something to that effect. Now-a-days, every swinging Richard hops on the "racing is taboo" bandwagon. It's a good way to get popular, people will give you 'likes', you will get a Nobel Peace prize, good hard working families will name their puppies after you, and then you can get together on the weekends with all your other car buddy and hold hands, united in the cause to end unlawful driving for good!

F*** THAT!!!!

None of the flaming really bothers me, I don't roll out with anyone else so I don't have a need to impress anyone. At the same time, I don't judge. Street racing is stupid, yeah, we ALL know this, but to be honest, I'll still do it, no f***s given. I don't need some millennial out of high school to remind me of the law. But you see, I like a certain stupid: the risk takers, the balls of brass types, the type of MEN in America that dressed up as Indians and threw tons of perfectly good British tea into Boston harbor, the type of stupid that hops off a landing craft onto a beach on D-Day, even the type of stupid that got Keiichi Tsuchiya suspended from racing for a time for drifting on the streets. Pioneers, warriors, real people that were real to themselves. (Don't look too hard into the analogies

The car scene IMO now-a-days is full of pussies, afraid to get hurt, afraid to get a ticket, afraid of their insurance going up, afraid of this, and of that. And they justify it by surrounding themselves with the same type of pussies that drive the same cars, that say the same boring things, that do the same boring stuff.

Let's be honest. I don't care how someone "touge's", but if your going to break the law on any scale, don't justify it by saying "well, we drive fast and all, but it's okay! We don't cross the double yellow, and we're all friends, and stuff". Own up to that sh*t! If your afraid of getting flamed, just don't say anything at all. And don't preach to me or anyone else on how do to it right just because your trying to save face.

I get it, we need to be safe, that goes without saying, but if we have to constantly remind ourselves of the "rules", then we're probably not intelligent enough to handle ourselves properly on the Touge anyways. So, STFU!

Love ya guys! More to come.

Props for a good post,

I may not agree with you completely 500KEG8, but I appreciate that you care enough to think out loud about this topic.

It's true we are habitual lawbreakers. We can debate till were blue in the face if that's ok or not, but that's a fact. What seperates the men from the boys is how we behave in this realm we call touge because s*** does happen. Of course there are measures we can take to minimize the risks for ourselves and others, but any 'rules' we come up with are just as easy to ignore as the laws that say we can't touge in the first place. As you say, let's be honest, that's reality.

I learned to drive practicing solo on the touge just like you 500KEG8, and I have no doubt that's helped me leap ahead of the typical learning curve of your average driving enthusiast. Hidden dangers such as deer, debris, crazy hippy-bum cyclists, (not to mention changing road conditions) sharpen your instincts, and your reflexes, like nothing else can.

However since I've moved to a denser urban metropolitan area I've seen how different the touge scene is down here. I've heard accounts of at least five cars going off in the last six months. In each incident those drivers were in a group chasing someone who was faster then they were and lost control. Everyone wants to be special and have better skills than the other guy, but fact is you'll get a better idea of your own limits testing yourself on your own terms. The moment you bring competition and ego into it, that's when mistakes are more likely to happen.

That is a good point. The key here is exercising judgment, and for me (and I think most of us) is getting caught up in numb-nuts who uses no judgment and does exactly what you said, lose control, and God forbid whatever happens after that.

Funny story about judgment: Jan 2010, I did a touge race when I had my Civic against another Civic. The guy driving the other car I respected, I knew he was a good driver and knew the road we were going down well. I could only trust him that we would exercise good judgment, and we both agreed no passing, keeping distance, and other ground rules to keep things kosher (that was specific to this race). But it was a race, we raced, he beat me, we laughed and shook hands and went our way.

A few months later one night, the same dude was drinking and flipped his car on the same road. Luckily he was okay, but it could have just as easily killed him, or others. A poor decision was made, one that could have been prevented.

Not to "bash" as you say it, but your opinions of this group and their values are one sided? I'll be honest I skimmed the highlights of that rant. But this group was based by friends locally and for the love of Touge, maybe judge us once you have actually met us or come out to a run? We are all in it to have fun and the risk, but not at the risk of others.

My 2 cents.

I read this as a car culture rant in general on a forum that for the most part embraces 500KEG8's views. I see your point Sam, and hopefully 500KEG8 can clarify for us.

Members of this forum are the first and only people I have felt comfortable enough with to actually run the touge as a group. I still run alone 95% of the time, but if I do run with others they are members here.

There are no real "rules" here that I'm aware of. Most of the etiquette posted is for new people wanting to join for their first run to help keep the "numb-nuts" in check. Success on the track or autoX does not always translate into a good touge driver. I'm probably in the minority here as I have never participated as a driver in any sanctioned event.

In fact, I wish we were a little more picky in who 4Touge approves. I found myself agreeing with most of what you(500KEG8) have stated. I don't like calling attention to myself. I slow down when I encounter anybody else (except for the Dragon where we are embraced). I enjoy running at night (most know that here), but deer are an obvious concern. Last trip to the Dragon I didn't run at night because I thought it was too cold. I have recently installed an EWG and I am plumbing the dump tube back into the exhaust because it is way too loud. The extra attention is not good imo. I don't cross the double yellow because I want to carve the curves not straighten them out. To me the overall speed from point A to B is not what I'm after, but rather HOW I get from A to B. These are all personal preference and not rules. This is how I Touge.

For the record I have been sitting in the choir box for most of this thread...keep preaching... Speaking of preaching where is the Sparta with one of his sermons?

Sam - All good homie, I'd rather you read my post a bit more, I'm not bashing anyone on this forum per se, I am bashing the bashing of anyone who works a little differently than the "core" group of friends on this forum maybe.

About me: I am highly competitive. If you are not highly competitive, they you are free to call me a competitive a** Hole. I'm fine with this, I call myself this all the time, it's just my nature. But where many confuse my being a arrogant a** hole with being a insecure jerk, it's not. I thrive on competition! In other words, my friends, the one's who I respect and remember the most are the ones who push me to be better, challenge me to think outside the social norms, even antagonize me.

Do you know what Bronies are? It's a fan base, made up of mostly men, who are a fan of the new My Little Pony. The ideas are wholesome enough: except ppl for who they are, friendship is key, hugs, and rainbows, and fun, la la la la.... I don't judge Bronies, but for me, I saw like 60 sec of the show and I felt like I needed to kill myself.

Yeah, the car scene has turned into Bronies. If you guys want to just hang out, be buddies, cruise around, and have a safe and lovely time, cool.

Honestly, I don't know how you "love" the touge, I really don't know you guys, I don't want to judge. But I have been a fly on the wall on this forum most of the time, and from the way some people on here talk, I feel like it's more of the same car scene Bronie BS.

The guys I rolled with back in the day, before any of us knew anything about Initial D or what have, didn't need to remind each other of "risks". We just knew the risks, we actively reduced the risks as much as humanly possible. We evaluated the risk vs reward = judgment. And the fastest, craziest, most unhinged f*cker out of all of us was a beacon of what to do, and what not to do, and then we f*cking pushed the envelop. NONE of us ever spoke on how to be safe, and do this, and don't do that blah blah blah. We were just motha f*ckin PROFESSIONAL! It was like Fight Club in way I guess. We also didn't have a forum to talk about anything we did...I guess we don't talk about Fight Club.

I'm competitive at the track now-a-days, win or lose, I love it. But a big chunk of my heart and soul is on the street, I've learned so much. Unfortunately, dem car Bronies think it's all taboo, so why bother any more.

There is a lot that goes on that is not posted here, and I would say most understand this is a public forum. I choose my words carefully knowing this can be read by LEOs. It really is a shame none of us were able to meet up with you while you were here to give you a taste of what 4Touge is really about. However, seeing as you don't find any of the roads in N.GA, E Tenn, or NC impressive I doubt we will be crossing paths in the future.

I just said Deal's Gap wasn't that impressive. Never got a chance to try any of the other roads.

In racing and AutoX, there are somethings that no one talks about, i.e. cheating, but the funny thing is, nearly everyone cheats. If you have got to know some of the top teams, whether it's NASCAR, F1, Touring car, Le Mans, what have you, the fastests car know how to cheat, but understandably, no one will ever speak a word.

Of course this is entirely irrelevant to touge, my point is: when someone says "There is a lot that goes on that is not posted here" I understand, for whatever reason, you got to stay on the DL, but where in the hell do you talk about it? I'm not in with the physical group of 4Touge for obvious reasons (like location), but if you guys are more unhinged than I am in real life, you better believe when I get time off to come down in the future, I'll mix it up with you guys in a heart beat! (To be honest, on the street, I think of myself as rather conservative, but I have no earthly idea where anyone else stands, Richmond is devoid of good drivers).

Otherwise, this forum makes you look like Bronies. My 2 cents.

You will have fun if you ever meet up with us. Roads are generally, unimpressive, after a certain point. However who you're chasing or is chasing you can change that quickly.

I hear exactly what you are saying. I was told by others that in most sanctioned racing you win in the "grey" areas. They won't call it cheating :-).

The local forum that is make specific frowns upon any discussion of street "racing". So I do understand what you're getting at, and I assure you the core group here is the real deal.

OT: I want to now who the Minnoe scared I've always had a blast chasing the Minnoe. Although my paint doesn't like your sticky tires.

500KEG8 wrote:

...when someone says "There is a lot that goes on that is not posted here" I understand, for whatever reason, you got to stay on the DL, but where in the hell do you talk about it?

Well, 4touge does have a facebook group... if its anything like my local group of touge enthusiasts we have private 'touge chats' through facebook messenger that helps us organize and share stories. I can even add you to ours if you wish?

JaredM wrote:

You will have fun if you ever meet up with us.  Roads are generally, unimpressive, after a certain point.  However who you're chasing or is chasing you can change that quickly.

Very true, if you get bored with a road it might help to run it with someone else and see how they do it. If you know the road well already, it's a safe way to get inspired to try new things.

J_P wrote:

Although my paint doesn't like your sticky tires.

I know how you feel... a buddy of mine was using slicks recently while I was chasing in a Miata with no roof... it felt like it was hailing... and I picked out like a dozen pebbles from my interior afterwards.

I love drivin' dem back roads, even got myself a GoPro; though I haven't used it yet though, but I'll probably start hooking it up to my 626 for the lol's.

Anyways, I hope, I HOPE I'm the most vanilla driver in this group, gives me inspiration that I have a long way to grow and improve (and then start dumping tons of $$$ into my ride). I even tell these guys around RVA, "look," I say, "I'm not looking for people to beat, I'm looking for the guy(s) who can beat me!" But as it stands, there's is absolutely zero love (or knowledge) for the touge around here, and I'm quite tired of it, I'm about done.

If you guys are willing to prove me wrong (not that you need to prove anything to me), or perhaps there is something I'm missing, I'm willing to be shown the "real deal".

Thank you!

BTW, I am on 4touge on FB, just following, didn't know if there was anything else.

500KEG8 wrote:

If you guys are willing to prove me wrong (not that you need to prove anything to me), or perhaps there is something I'm missing, I'm willing to be shown the "real deal".

Here is the deal. We don't talk about it on here because we don't need to. Why do you ask do we not need to? Because we talk about it in between driving the Touge. I don't need to talk about how I drove better than so and so and how so and so did this or that, because we already talked about it at the Touge. You only see this side of us. The side of us that is coordinating or just bored. This forum is generally inactive other than for planning trips and car builds.

I can honestly say, in all the groups and people I've run with and/or against, this is the most bad a** group of drivers around. Our "normal" is too fast for most people. And our fast is still safe but rediculously fast. And we don't talk about it because we established it on the Touge. No need to bring it back here. Last time I went with a group of Touge "enthusiasts", I was lead and one went into a ditch and the other hit the wall trying to keep up. Just saying.

Save your judgement until you run with us.

I'm lazy so I usually don't read long threads but I figured I'd give this one a try. I wasn't sure if it was for real or joking around? Anyways, I'm not sure I understand your questions if there was one or the point your are wanting to make 500KEG8. If you could sum it down to a couple sentence that would be helpful.

If your questions was "why do you have rules if you are breaking the law anyways"? Personally, I don't see life as black or white, I see lots of gray. When I get in my car and drive to work, I am making a choice of putting my life in danger - yes even my drive to work is a dangerous choice to make. But just because I made the decision to increase the likelihood that I can get in an accident doesn't mean I'm not going to buckle up when I get in my car. My balance is knowing that driving is not safe so I want to offset my chances of something terrible happening in an accident by buckling up.

When we drive on the mountains, specially with new people, we want to find a happy balance. Some middle ground to compromise with as there are many external factors to consider in our safety and everyone around us - just like going to a track, there are rules to follow to keep everyone safer like watching flags and slowing when you see a certain color flag. When driving with new people we'll enforce certain rules more than when we drive with each other.

If you came to drive with us, no matter how fast or good you are, I'm not going to push you because I don't know you. And if I sense you are reckless, I'll let you go off on your own. You might think you are the baddest driver out there and faster than everyone else when in reality no one wants to drive with you. Or, you might be really fast and in control. In that case, I'll push you as I'll feel ok doing so and if you leave me behind I will compliment you.

I know who I can drive with and feel safer with (not safe as that would be an impossible absolute - but safer). I know certain people I do not feel safe with and avoid. To me, it's all about finding the right balance in everything I do.

I was riding in the car that hit the wall!

I thought a friend of mine was going to come up and when he didn't show, I hopped in the next in line car... (Only because Minnoe only has one damn seat : )

And Minnoe, exactly. True discussion is up in the mountains.

I've met 4T guys at local street racing events as well (wuhhh?!?!). Good times when balance is key.

Local street racing events? I don't know of anybody that would do that.

Private chats on fb are not private to Leo's (or courtroom). things you say can be used against you in a form of character assassination. the webserver has to turn everything over at the mildest request. all of your ip's are logged.

~things you learn from your wife...

MidnightblueMR2 wrote:

Private chats on fb are not private to Leo's (or courtroom). things you say can be used against you in a form of character assassination. the webserver has to turn everything over at the mildest request. all of your ip's are logged.

~things you learn from your wife...

What do you suggest as an alternative?