Power vs. Control

track and mt runs are different because on the mts you cant really go around a car even if you could. and the fact that whoever knows the road more has the advantage.

TouringBubble wrote:

I beg to differ ... A 1st gen MR2 might be debatable, but a Miata with a decent driver could take an Evo/STi in the twisties. Evo's are great, but they can't defy physics. Big, heavy cars will not out corner small, nimble ones. On a course with many straights the Evo will pull away, but anything tight takes away the Evo's advantage.

Ervin knows his cars. Though we don't always agree (swaybars FTW), he does know what is fast in the twisties as he's owned and driven many different cars/layouts in the mountains.

I agree with you 300%....I've been in Fast cars(BJ/Jason) and 'slower' cars Jon's miata. We went to little talladega and plugged in the good ole fashion g-meter and Jon's g-force was the same as Jason's. There was just a power deficit. In the mountains, i think Jon's car can keep with BJ/Jason's. Keep in mind that BJ has the variants and jason has the flex's, compared to Jon's Racing Beat sways with RT615 and pulls the same later G and slaloms @ least as well

To BJ/Jason:

Power is Big @ Little Talli...The 'Underpowered' cars handles just as well, but since guys don't have a power deficit, its easy for you guys to 'Bully' other cars that are slower.

True Testament of a cars handling prowess:

You get a headache/naseous after 5 laps...lol

it might pull same G's but the way it pulls is different.

... i guess what im trying to say is we can hold out more tail than the miata can and still be in controll while still accelerating while the miata when it starts to slide he would either slow down or be at the same speed.

so same G's but different speed. i can hold my foot to the floor right after the apex sometimes before the apex and go full throttle while the rwd cars cannot.

Grocery Grip wrote:

i think Jon's car can keep with BJ/Jason's.

But you say that and know its not True. you have been up there with both of us! you just being argumentative.

PS: I like your new sig!

bomjoon wrote:

it might pull same G's but the way it pulls is different.

... i guess what im trying to say is we can hold out more tail than the miata can and still be in controll while still accelerating while the miata when it starts to slide he would either slow down or be at the same speed.

so same G's but different speed. i can hold my foot to the floor right after the apex and go full throttle while the rwd cars cannot.

Yes like i said - 2 different platforms

Jason wrote:

Grocery Grip wrote:

i think Jon's car can keep with BJ/Jason's.

But you say that and know its not True. you have been up there with both of us! you just being argumentative.

PS: I like your new sig!

Not true:

Not being negative, but the facts are the facts. You have a 'FASTER' car than Jon's, so when there's are str8, BOOM you're GONE like the wind. But His cornering speeds easily rival yours and BJ's

yeah but on touge or track its not only the turns where it determines race.

you gotta be fast on straights.

like on roads/track with lotsa straights like 129 underpowered cars cant keep up.

we hit 115mph on some straights on 129 last time. try that with a NA miata.

This statement is not geared @ you, Jason or BJ but:

"Sometimes Power can compensate for in-precise Handling", especially if the str8's are long enough....lol

Grocery Grip wrote:

His cornering speeds easily rival yours and BJ's

I never said his cornering speeds aren't as good as ours....


Im looking at the whole picture... point A to point B ..

here we go.. I got jon on you Bobby!!!

what yason said...

lighter car will always have better handling capabilities than the heavier cars given equal mods and tires... its just physics.

bomjoon wrote:

yeah but on touge or track its not only the turns where it determines race.

you gotta be fast on straights.

like on roads/track with lotsa straights like 129 underpowered cars cant keep up.

we hit 115mph on some straights on 129 last time. try that with a NA miata.

Point Taken...I can't argue that...but i can say this: I have just as much fun riding in Jon's Miata as i do with you guys.....that's just a testament of how well set up Jon's car is.

bomjoon wrote:

what yason said...

lighter car will always have better handling capabilities than the heavier cars given equal mods and tires... its just physics.

What Bomjoon said.. LOL And take it from him... He has had both!

Grocery Grip wrote:

I have just as much fun riding in Jon's Miata as i do with you guys.....that's just a testament of how well set up Jon's car is.

Isnt that what I said in the very beginning of this?????

I may just need to search the old archives to look up touge challenges from best motoring.....

A small, nimble car should be able to OUT CORNER a large, powerful AWD like the ones in question. They can actually hold more G's as the center of gravity is lower and mass is less. The one advantage of the AWD car is the earlier throttle which Joey mentioned. In every other aspect the heavy car loses.

Also as Joey said, the course matters. A touge pass with long straights would be much like TGPR ... the AWD powerhouse would murder the convertible thimblemobile. But, put those two on 3 miles of consecutive switchbacks and the result would be completely opposite. It can change direction faster ... plain and simple. The ONLY reason that the AWD can make that mass turn is the consecutive push/pull of the superior drivetrain.

I'm simply saying that on a well balanced course, there is no significant advantage to more power if the car is still a buffalo ... it will lose ground in the corners.

As a comparison, I have seen John Waight drive and he's good ... REALLY good. His Miata works miracles at times. However, at TGPR I'd probably lap him just like Joey did. Thats because 80% of the track is simply laying on the throttle and letting the car go, which Evo's are very good at. That is not a reflection of skill at all as he's a MUCH better driver than I.

This is the exact reason I don't always agree with times at the Ring ... the 200+ MPH back straight gives high HP cars a HUGE advantage.

Either way ... I think we all agree that a small car had better cornering capability than a large one. But, some are arguing that an Evo/STi/WRX is a BETTER car for touge. I disagree.

Jason chill - It takes time to read......

ok....in SUPER-tight sections, I might not lose MUCH ground, but with only sways, 16yr-old OEM Bilsteins, and the same tires as everyone else, I'm not half as setup as I could be, so having that said - with no more power and only doing more suspension/chassis mods, I might be able to keep up in the super-tights...maybe.

In anywhere there's is ANY incline or where a vehicle can go faster than 40mph I have zero chance and might as well be pedaling a bike like Lance.

My verdict is if I do what I want with my car - about 30-50 more naturally-aspirated power, focusing on a responsive engine and shedding 200lbs, in addition to the previously mentioned mods, we might have an argument, but until then, you simply can't compare the two except in short sections of super-tight roads.

There's a reason why there are weight classes on the Hot Version Touge videos(ie. "Touge 200", "Touge 300", "Touge Max")

Jon-San wrote:

Jason chill - It takes time to read......

ok....in SUPER-tight sections, I might not lose MUCH ground, but with only sways, 16yr-old OEM Bilsteins, and the same tires as everyone else, I'm not half as setup as I could be, so having that said - with no more power and only doing more suspension/chassis mods, I might be able to keep up in the super-tights...maybe.

In anywhere there's is ANY incline or where a vehicle can go faster than 40mph I have zero chance and might as well be pedaling a bike like Lance.

My verdict is if I do what I want with my car - about 30-50 more naturally-aspirated power, focusing on a responsive engine and shedding 200lbs, in addition to the previously mentioned mods, we might have an argument, but until then, you simply can't compare the two except in short sections of super-tight roads.

There's a reason why there are weight classes on the Hot Version Touge videos(ie. "Touge 200", "Touge 300", "Touge Max")

Jon:

I'll put your car up against ANY member here on touge! As long as they're are str8's

bomjoon wrote:

it might pull same G's but the way it pulls is different.

... i guess what im trying to say is we can hold out more tail than the miata can and still be in controll while still accelerating while the miata when it starts to slide he would either slow down or be at the same speed.

This logic is flawed Joey ... once you lose grip, G's fall. Max cornering occurs with max grip, not slip. If the car's G capability is equal, they would both slip at the same time. So, it doesn't matter what happens when the car slips ... that's more measuring the driver than the platform.

(I still say the small car would slip later and therefore corner better.)

Not Just Gorilla Munch!....ORGANIC Gorilla Munch!..........lol

TouringBubble wrote:

bomjoon wrote:

it might pull same G's but the way it pulls is different.

... i guess what im trying to say is we can hold out more tail than the miata can and still be in controll while still accelerating while the miata when it starts to slide he would either slow down or be at the same speed.

This logic is flawed Joey ... once you lose grip, G's fall. Max cornering occurs with max grip, not slip. If the car's G capability is equal, they would both slip at the same time. So, it doesn't matter what happens when the car slips ... that's more measuring the driver than the platform.

(I still say the small car would slip later and therefore corner better.)

Father Bubble:

Well said, you sound like an ENTHUSIAST

Jon-San wrote:

There's a reason why there are weight classes on the Hot Version Touge videos(ie. "Touge 200", "Touge 300", "Touge Max")

the touge roads that they have on best motoring is very closed tight and not a whole lotta straights.

mat you said awd platforms cant keep up in a touge but thats not 100% correct.

it really depends on what type of touge.

eveycar is unique in what they do just saying in overall mix of roads turbo'd and awd/fr cars have the advantage.

TouringBubble wrote:

Also as Joey said, the course matters. A touge pass with long straights would be much like TGPR ... the AWD powerhouse would murder the convertible thimblemobile. But, put those two on 3 miles of consecutive switchbacks and the result would be completely opposite. It can change direction faster ... plain and simple. The ONLY reason that the AWD can make that mass turn is the consecutive push/pull of the superior drivetrain.

Either way ... I think we all agree that a small car had better cornering capability than a large one. But, some are arguing that an Evo/STi/WRX is a BETTER car for touge. I disagree.

I agree Joey.

Grocery Grip wrote:

Father Bubble:

Well said, you sound like an ENTHUSIAST

Bubble, do you get a semi when Bobby starts with all that love talk??

hell in a touge rd where there are only 2 curves and a mile long straights a 1000hp drag queen with some suspension mods will crush a small light car with 100 hp.