Power vs. Control

hell in a touge rd where there are only 2 curves and a mile long straights a 1000hp drag queen with some suspension mods will crush a small light car with 100 hp.

TouringBubble wrote:

TouringBubble wrote:

Also as Joey said, the course matters. A touge pass with long straights would be much like TGPR ... the AWD powerhouse would murder the convertible thimblemobile. But, put those two on 3 miles of consecutive switchbacks and the result would be completely opposite. It can change direction faster ... plain and simple. The ONLY reason that the AWD can make that mass turn is the consecutive push/pull of the superior drivetrain.

Either way ... I think we all agree that a small car had better cornering capability than a large one. But, some are arguing that an Evo/STi/WRX is a BETTER car for touge. I disagree.

I agree Joey.

your posts have too long of a sentence... lol

it tooke me a while to read it all and keep up with what you said. lol

Jason wrote:

Grocery Grip wrote:

Father Bubble:

Well said, you sound like an ENTHUSIAST

Bubble, do you get a semi when Bobby starts with all that love talk??

A little .. yes. =P

(BTW, I think it's about time I get a custom title. "Master(De)bater" maybe ... lol.)

i appreciate the compliments from everyone - i agree with all of you on points...

all i can say is i love my car and i have equal the fun-factor of everyone here, which is all that matters to me, and all at a pretty low-to-maintain cost and replacement parts/tires are cheap too.
that's the beauty of this stuff is being able appreciate different makes and their strong suits.

bomjoon wrote:

your posts have too long of a sentence... lol

it tooke me a while to read it all and keep up with what you said. lol

WTF is so hard about "Also as Joey said, the course matters."

TouringBubble wrote:

bomjoon wrote:

it might pull same G's but the way it pulls is different.

... i guess what im trying to say is we can hold out more tail than the miata can and still be in controll while still accelerating while the miata when it starts to slide he would either slow down or be at the same speed.

This logic is flawed Joey ... once you lose grip, G's fall. Max cornering occurs with max grip, not slip. If the car's G capability is equal, they would both slip at the same time. So, it doesn't matter what happens when the car slips ... that's more measuring the driver than the platform.

(I still say the small car would slip later and therefore corner better.)

its not flawed. you just dont get err... i didnt explain enough.

there is a point where lil loss of grip in a turn can actually make the car go faster around a corner. might loose the G' reading but the car is actually going faster.
this works best when you have lots of play room on the road.

instead of following the perfect line you somewhat follow the perfect line but with more speed. you might be slipping and not pulling as much as G's but after you exit a corner you will be at a faster mph range.

does that make sense?

Yes Joey but this didnt LOL

Grocery Grip wrote:

Jon:

I'll put your car up against ANY member here on touge! As long as they're are str8's

bomjoon wrote:

its not flawed. you just dont get err... i didnt explain enough.

there is a point where lil loss of grip in a turn can actually make the car go faster around a corner. might loose the G' reading but the car is actually going faster.
this works best when you have lots of play room on the road.

instead of following the perfect line you somewhat follow the perfect line but with more speed. you might be slipping and not pulling as much as G's but after you exit a corner you will be at a faster mph range.

I know what you're saying man, but I still say that's the driver's ability and not the car's. You're correct that you can use slip to modify your line for a better exit. But, also consider that if the small car has more grip and pulls more G's in the corner, it wouldn't have to use that technique for the same exit as the AWD car. And that technique can also be used with RWD, albeit more precisely and with more caution.

TouringBubble wrote:

bomjoon wrote:

its not flawed. you just dont get err... i didnt explain enough.

there is a point where lil loss of grip in a turn can actually make the car go faster around a corner. might loose the G' reading but the car is actually going faster.
this works best when you have lots of play room on the road.

instead of following the perfect line you somewhat follow the perfect line but with more speed. you might be slipping and not pulling as much as G's but after you exit a corner you will be at a faster mph range.

I know what you're saying man, but I still say that's the driver's ability and not the car's. You're correct that you can use slip to modify your line for a better exit. But, also consider that if the small car has more grip and pulls more G's in the corner, it wouldn't have to use that technique for the same exit as the AWD car. And that technique can also be used with RWD, albeit more precisely and with more caution.

Grocery Grip Quote:

Why can't we all get ALONG?

Jason/BJ:

Ya'll Need the P O W A H to keep up! Won't be caught DOA in a slow car...lol

I need cliff notes

Are we talking whats more important in the mts power or control?

anywhere.

you guys have to look at it like autocross there are different classes for a reason. small cars, althought the y may handle amazing and be fast for their size, still can't keep up with a 500hp STi. i don't care who's driving, or where they're driving, cars have their limits.


/discussion


and bobby you suck at teh interweb. seriously, start posting/quoting correctly

bonny is gettin pwnd left and right.

doods its all matter of preference and what type of racing you do.

im just saying all round car for it to win it needs power more than control.
not just light weight and size.

"power is nothing w/o control" thats the most BS quote ever.

with enough power there will be control.

ok cool.

I rather go with control first think of a bike vs car on the mnts obviously they will eat up just about anybodies car on here in the straights but in the turns they cant take them as fast as we can.

I remember one runs we did and we got caught up with some bikes and they pretty much slowed us down on the turns. Id also rather go control first because my stage 2 STI has just about all the power I would really want on a mtn road. After I did the springs and sways and actually the STI wing I was in love with my car and I pretty much left Dana and Sean behind lol. Now that I live in straight road central its got me think more about power mods so I guess it depends on what you do with your car

bomjoon wrote:

bonny is gettin pwnd left and right.

doods its all matter of preference and what type of racing you do.

im just saying all round car for it to win it needs power more than control.
not just light weight and size.

"power is nothing w/o control" thats the most BS quote ever.

with enough power there will be control.

thats what im saying. there are different classes, or levels, or whatever you wanna call them.

small cars are here:
_____________________________________________

another level here:
______________________________________________

faster cars here:
_____________________________________________

etc, etc


they are not on the same plane

BC2003UGA wrote:

anywhere.

you guys have to look at it like autocross there are different classes for a reason. small cars, althought the y may handle amazing and be fast for their size, still can't keep up with a 500hp STi. i don't care who's driving, or where they're driving, cars have their limits.


/discussion


and bobby you suck at teh interweb. seriously, start posting/quoting
correctly

Jake:

Interweb?...You mean Interent?....j/k...I see you're picking up some bad habits from Jason....

no just saying you can't quote

Jason:

My sig looks like Afred Hitchcock

Grocery Grip wrote:

Jason:

My sig looks like Afred Hitchcock

incorrect engrish bonny


it should look like this:

Jason, my sig looks like Alfred Hitchcock




but you're right. it does, haha

Grocery Grip wrote:

Jason:

My sig looks like Afred Hitchcock

yea dude, you dont have to say who you are talking to, just click the quote button. Just make sure you type your message after the [/quote].

And it is grammatically correct to say 'interweb' when refering to the internet on a forum. The same as 'teh' rather than 'The.'

Its mad interweb tyte typing yo

BC2003UGA wrote:

anywhere.

you guys have to look at it like autocross there are different classes for a reason. small cars, althought the y may handle amazing and be fast for their size, still can't keep up with a 500hp STi. i don't care who's driving, or where they're driving, cars have their limits.

i 2nd this, that's why even on those japanese touge episodes, hot special or something, with Tsuchiya...they have the civic hatch which destroys all and then a whole other class for like the mine's r34, which is also the best...but way faster than the civic.

Grocery Grip wrote:

BC2003UGA wrote:

anywhere.

you guys have to look at it like autocross there are different classes for a reason. small cars, althought the y may handle amazing and be fast for their size, still can't keep up with a 500hp STi. i don't care who's driving, or where they're driving, cars have their limits.


/discussion


and bobby you suck at teh interweb. seriously, start posting/quoting
correctly

Jake:

Interweb?...You mean Interent?....j/k...I see you're picking up some bad habits from Jason....

why are you quoting and then also saying...

jake: blah blah durka durka

you quoted, we know who you're replying to...

Cool....Roger that .....still learning forum jargon

bomjoon wrote:

bonny is gettin pwnd left and right.

doods its all matter of preference and what type of racing you do.

im just saying all round car for it to win it needs power more than control.
not just light weight and size.

"power is nothing w/o control" thats the most BS quote ever.

with enough power there will be control.

I was with you till this one Joey ... "Withe enough power there will be control?" I can not agree with that. You simply cannot take a 1000hp Supra to the Dragon and do anything remotely useful with it.

Power is useless w/o control ... take the SRT-4 for example ... what's the point of 94531 whp and FWD? I mean, you've got to disable the flux capacitor to drive to WalMart in the thing.

dood if you has madd tyte power im sure you will have something to compensate for the mods that you haz to support the power. unless you iz sum riceuh dood dat dont care much about controlling the power.

if you has 1000 hp get some rim/tires that are 15" wide. it will hold then.
... not really. heh

let me rephrase.

with enough power controll follows

ok... I fell behind due to napping, but here goes...

one AWD has early throttle but properly driven MR will have earlier.

two, and yes I am skipping around, the cars maybe classed differently, but, you would be suprised to see that even at the national level times are not that far apart on auto x.

three, yes the road course is an entirely different environment and has little to no application to touge/auto x

four, odds are both you (Jason) and Joey probably lapped Waight in his new spec Miata which he does not like and has only had for 2 months.

five, i like the new sig as well bobby

six, as was stated before, lighter cars can corner faster, brake later, apex earlier, and therefore use throttle much faster than heavier cars. There are only 2 real downfalls to lighter cars, stability and power. power is an easy fix however stability and lightweight can not go in the same sentence. Again, I say on a downhill lightweight cars can trounce heavier cars, obviously the opposite is held true on an uphill.

seven, lastly, if there is any endurance to be had, the lightweight car will outlast the heavier car. simply because the parts don't have to work as hard.(given all exactly the same products)

edit: ok so seven isn't the last thing, however two more things

eight, having high power can be more of a hinderance than a help, one of the reasons my goal in power for the STi is 400/40* is because I feel that is where I will meet my limits.

nine, power delivery is a big reason why I loved 1st gen MR2's and also plays a big part of how fast you can go on the road, most people tend to think lots of torque early as possible is best, I prefer a smooth powerband. In my short dealings with the STi, and long dealings with the Evo, I say I actually prefer the evo power delivery, this may undoubtedly be due to having good tires on the Evo v. sh***y tires on the STi, but, the STi seems to be a much harder hit and therefore I am not able to really push the car.